Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex

[Tilius]

Commai il Re di Svezia (per secolare tradizione in uso insino al 1973) si appellava anche Re dei Goti e Re dei Vandali?
Quando principiò codesta "pretesa"?
Ringrazio sin d'ora per le eventuali risposte.

[fabrizio guinzio]

Perchè le regioni d'origine di quelle popolazioni sono in Svezia; la Scandinavia tutta è la madre dei popoli germani. I tre figli del Sovrano, che io sappia, sono Duchi di Visigotia, di Ostrogotia e di Vandalia, regioni del Regno. Ciao,

[Tilius]

Perchè le regioni d'origine di quelle popolazioni sono in Svezia; la Scandinavia tutta è la madre dei popoli germani. I tre figli del Sovrano, che io sappia, sono Duchi di Visigotia, di Ostrogotia e di Vandalia, regioni del Regno. Ciao,

OK. Ma quando avvenne questa (auto?)attribuzione di titoli (mi rifiuto di credere che essa abbia una continuità ininterrotta dall'evo antico)?
La sostanza suona un po' grossa: sarebbe come se Vittorio Emanuele si fosse proclamato Imperatore di Roma dopo Porta Pia... o che il Re di Spagna fosse anche Re dei Visigoti (perché i Visigoti non saranno originari della penisola iberica ma é lì che si sono stanziati alla fine...)...

[Tilius]

Dalla tanto vituperata Wikipedia...

King of the Goths
The title of King of the Goths (Swedish: Götes konung, Danish: Gothernes konge / De Gothers Konge, Latin: gothorum rex) was for many centuries borne by both the Kings of Sweden and the Kings of Denmark, denoting sovereignty or claimed sovereignty over the antique people of the Goths.

To kings of Denmark, it chiefly meant the island of Gotland, traditionally regarded as the original home of the Goths, and to kings of Sweden, it meant the other of the two constituent parts of that kingdom (see Lands of Sweden), the Gothenland, southern "half" of Sweden.

Preludes
It is actually believed that a note in a papal letter copy in about 1100 means Inge and Halsten, Kings of the Goths—they had recently lost the upper svear part of their kingdom.
In a papal letter dated 5 September 1164, king Charles VII of Sweden (Karl Sverkersson) (c 1130–67; reigned 1161–1167) already was addressed as "rex Sweorum et Gothorum".

Sweden's title
The first Swedish king to regularly use the title was King Magnus III of Sweden, particularly after he had in c 1278 had his final win over his deposed brother Valdemar who had hitherto held lands of Västergötland. First Sveriges och Götes Konung up to later decades of Gustaf I of Sweden, then Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung, was used in official documentation. Between 1814 and 1905 Sveriges, Norges, Götes och Vendes Konung was used, adding Norway. Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung was used again from 1905 up to the accession of Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden in 1973, who was the first monarch officially proclaimed Sveriges Konung ("King of Sweden") and nothing else.

Denmark's title
Coat of arms representing the Danish monarchs' title as King of the Goths.The first Danish king to use the title was King Valdemar IV (reigned 1340 to 1375), who adopted it in 1362[1] after conquering Gotland the previous year. The Danish Kings continued to use the title over the next six hundred years until 1972, when Queen Margrethe II succeeded. She abandoned the use of all her predecessors' titles except her title as Denmark's Queen, which is the royal style today.

First documented 1449,[1] the arms of the Danish monarchs contained until 1972 a subcoat representing the title King of the Goths: on gold, a blue heraldic leopard over nine red hearts. Originally derived from the arms of the dukes of Halland which again was derived from the Danish arms. This symbol is consequently unrelated to Gotland's arms featuring the Agnus Dei, although the latter symbol was also formerly represented in the arms of Denmark

...ergo parrebbe che il titolo si origini intorno all'XI secolo.

[Tilius]

King of the Wends
The title of King of the Wends denoted sovereignty or claims over once-Slavic lands of southern coasts of the Baltic Sea, those otherwise called Mecklenburg, Holstein and Pomerania, and was used from 12th century to 1972 by Kings of Denmark and from ca 1540 to 1973 by the Kings of Sweden.

The generally accepted interpretation is that the word refers to the Wends, a Slavic people that lived on the south shores of the Baltic Sea, although the situation is further complicated by the existence of the Vends, located between the Finns and the Wends and with somewhat unknown origin. The title's one poetic explanation also was kingship over the antique people of the Vandals (vandalorum rex), but that idea came only in 16th century. A recent interpretation, not much supported in academic research, has been made that the part "Vend" in the later established titles of the Kings of Sweden (three kingdoms: King of the Svear, Götar and Vends; Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung) means Finland, the form presumeably being akin to Vindland.[citation needed] As such, the Österland—the medieval name for the Finnish part of the Swedish kingdom—was the third part of the realm. However, only forty years after the adoption of the title "king of the Wends" began the Swedish kings to style themselves as "Grand Prince of Finland" as well.

Kings of Denmark bore the title for eight centuries, after it was first adopted by King Canute VI (reigned 1182 to 1202), who conquered the lands of the Wends in Pomerania and Mecklenburg. In Germanic languages, the name was Wends, and in medieval documentation the Latin name was sclavorum rex, referring to the Slavic peoples in and around the region now known as Mecklenburg. In 16th century, Latin sclavorum was changed to vandalorum also by Danish kings, showing the new poetic idea. The Danish Kings continued to use the title over the next seven hundred years until 1972, when Queen Margrethe II succeeded. She abandoned the use of all the royal titles except for that of Denmark's King/Queen, which is the royal style today.

When Sweden had made its final breakaway from the Kalmar union that united it with Norway and Denmark, tensions between the two rulers were bad, and it showed also in royal paraphernalia such as flags, coat-of-arms and titles. Gustav I of Sweden adopted c 1540 the third "kingdom" to his titles (which hitherto had only included Swedes and Goths): he took "Vandalorumque" rex, "Vendes" konung as the third name of the list of kingships. Sveriges, Götes och Vendes konung was used in official documentation up to the accession of Charles XVI Gustav of Sweden in 1973, who was the first proclaimed officially Sveriges konung ("King of Sweden") and nothing else.

Ancora più interessante é il doppio misunderstanding all'origine del titolo di Re dei Vandali...
Qualcuno può confermare?

[dpascale]

Occhio però che si sta parlando dei Geati (ricordate Beowulf?), non dei Goti... Che poi le due popolazioni fossero più o meno strettamente imparentate è un altro discorso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats

D.

[Cronista di Livonia]

Dunque, in realta' vi fu una interessante diatriba tra vescovi spagnoli e svedesi, nel 1400ca. se ben ricordo, su chi fossero i veri discendenti dei goti, gli spagnoli, discendenti dei gloriosi visigoti conquistatori di Roma e quindi della parte piu' gagliarda del popolo goto, oppure gli svedesi, discendenti di quei pavidi rimasti a casa e privi delle glorie visigote. Non ricordo la soluzione, ma penso che entrambi abbiano continuato a reclamare tale discendenza ancora per un po' (anche se il Re di Spagna non mi risulta si sia mai proclamato Rex Vandalorum et Alanorum o Gothorum, etc etc). Nel caso degli spagnoli l'ideale dell'aristocratico e' rimasto pallido e possibilmente biondo con occhi azzurri per alcuni secoli in quanto prova di mancanza di sangue moresco.

Sui Geati anche quelli possono essere Goti e si propende in genere per tale soluzione, nei testi antichi (vedasi p.es. Jordanes) si fa spesso confusione fra Goti, Geti, Massageti, Geati e quindi non e' da escludere che i geati di beowulf fossero i Goti.
Cordialmente,

Il Cronista di Livonia

[dpascale]

Egregio Cronista,
La ringrazio per la gradita precisazione.
Cordiali saluti,

Daniele